https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpQWYdByNSg, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1DlBRS0PiE. In addition, he was having enough of a problem Using the internet archive I was able to locate an archived copy of the airdisaster.com page with the wav file listed (May 2006), but the wav file itself (wal2605.wav) had not been archived. Page contents not supported in other languages. "I saw a witch, a werewolf and a goblin" - Valenciana describing what he saw after climbing out of the mangled wreckage of a DC-10 in 1979. After the aircraft initially touched down, it continued along the ground We thank you for your support and hope you'll join the largest aviation community on the web. - paragraph amended at 00:00, 31 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.182.80, He has expressed considerable accusatory disdain for the Mexican authorities and their airport and believes that their share of blame for the disaster has never been properly acknowledged. Gilbert too was questionable, spending part of the time prior to the flight flying long distance in a private aircraft before getting some sleep. Props and jets from the good old days, Flight Decks What happened was it was 3am, they were all half asleep on the job and descended into the ground, and one main gear happened to come into contact with a closed runway. " The nose gear did not contact The aircraft did not hit particularly hard - the left wheels on the side of 23L only - 2 g of force is not "hard" or that unusual according to reports on the DC-10 or other aircraft for that matter. Western Airlines Flight 2605 Crash With CVR (Cockpit Voice Recorder) Vintage news cast with low volume CVR but informational at beginning Louder CVR with no introduction LAST WORDS SAID BY CAPTAIN: JESUS CHRIST! Gilbert had limited or no control over the plane after the collision with the dump truck. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. TNVC/NGI Giveaway: 15 winners with over $7000 worth of prizes!! Quoting . The Originals Boutique, Htel Les Trois Roses, Grenoble Meyla. Following 2605's destruction, it was discovered the ILS system was indeed not acccurate at Mexico City, not because of moving construction equipment obviously, but just off and inaccurate by degrees. A well known problem is the potential for erroneous glideslope and/or localizer indications caused by movement of aircraft or equipment through ILS critical areas. general avtation will probably have to wait a long time. His flight manager had promised to 296 68 68 comments Best Add a Comment [deleted] 9 yr. ago [removed] cheekske 9 yr. ago The scream at 1:13 is what gets me 16 XxmsmaliciousxX 9 yr. ago That was terrifying and haunting. Stay at this 4-star business-friendly hotel in Meylan. LAST WORDS SAIF BY FIRST OFFICER: BRACE CHARLES! It is like this crash never happened. If you found this video to be interesting, be sure to subscribe as there is a new video every Saturday. You can also try to find a copy of David Grayson '"Terror in the Skies", published by W.H.Allen (London, England, 1989), which has a chapter dealing with that particular accident. On October 31, 1979, at 5:42 a.m. CST, the aircraft used for the flight, a McDonnell Douglas DC-10, crashed at Mexico City International Airport in fog, after landing on a runway closed for maintenance. "More than 2g" presumably doesn't mean 3g or 4g so this is not wildly abnormal and more importantly would not cause damage to the aircraft. Western Airlines 2605 is a crash that sticks out in my mind as one of the most mysterious accidents of all time, as comparatively little about the accident itself has been released to the public. - paragraph added at 22:43, 29 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.184.130, - section created at 18:41 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.249.251 (+ amended by 68.33.78.69 at 20:09), 25 December 2019, Flying Magazine is commercial journalism. The CVR recording has a violent crashing sound which could be the initial collision with the dump truck and immediately following this is pilot Charles Gilbert's exclamation of "Jesus Christ" and a complete change of intensity in the cockpit. It is strange. Pilot Gilbert got on the power (100%) before the impact with the truck and after Reichel calmly called to go around after everyone agreed they were at 23L. It's a plane which certainly has a divided history. Flight 2605 remains the deadliest air accident to have occurred in Mexico City. Valable sur tout le rseau tram et bus TAG. The CVR recording has a violent crashing sound which could be the initial collision with the dump truck and immediately following this is pilot Charles Gilbert's exclamation of "Jesus . A notable comparison aircraft in the era of the DC-10-10 was the competing L1011 plane. Ironically the article is surrounded by more pages of advertisements than its total page count. instrument letdown to a closed runway and a difficult tran per night. Our large helicopter section. I'd like to reply to yours as well. Its a red herring to say they landed on the wrong runway. The damage sustained by the aircraft after impact with the truck was such that continued control flight was not possible. This is most certainly not what happened. Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos. done flyin'." Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:186:4500:26FF:C1E0:69E9:B72B:2DC8 (talk) 01:08, 3 May 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply], 'Your other left stupid.' This wreckage continued aft, tearing away all What else would Quote copyedited at 21:28, 4 January 2020 (unsigned contribution) by 73.61.11.230: All of these accidents had some common human factors involvement. Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more. along with what sounds to be "turn left." However, this could very well have been the initial touchdown. Other entries are my opinions as well. We are looking into the cockpit through the cockpit windows to the pilots seated just inside. Flying Magazine is not a credible source. The ICAO circular makes no mention of this, presumably because it wasn't determined to be a contributing factor. - paragraph added (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.214.74 at 20:21, 19 December 2019, 20 minutes before the accident a 727 from Mexicana airlines landed normally on 23R using the "same procedure which the Western aircraft was instructed to follow". - paragraph added (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.180.238 at 23:02, 30 November 2019, The left landing gear was off the runway on the left side of runway 23L. I have read nothing that suggests there was a disagreement in the cockpit as they prepared for landing. Western Airlines Flight 2605 LAX-MEX '79 #10741679. From Appendix F Aeronautical Decision Making Cockpit Resource Management: "The right main landing gear was severed and, as it swung aft, it and the destroyed truck wreckage impacted the right inboard flap and aileron which was carried away. The entire CVR is not easily accessable. Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe, Classic Airliners As a lay person with a recent fascination with this crash, I'm assuming this was the truck collision by the noises on the CVR. ", - section created at 20:44, 30 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.131.243, Eduardo Valenciana has written a book containing a fair amount of material dedicated to the flight and the events of the crash: " Jumpseat, A Tale of Twisted Fate". The impact with the truck didn't destroy the plane, it continued to fly therefore we can assume the pilots would be actively talking (or screaming) until the next impacts and the final impact and their and the plane's destruction. The following excerpt discusses flight 2605 as well as three other accidents that for purposes here aren't identified. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.61.11.230 (talk) 21:25, 4 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]. Here's an author who unconvincingly defines ALPA's purpose. Props and jets from the good old days, Flight Decks [3] Western Airlines Flight 2605 Crash With CVR (Cockpit Voice Recorder). The plane just went all the way through to the closed runway. - paragraph amended at 23:09, 25 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.246.108, What responsibility did Western management have for the crash of 2605? His logically flimsy conclusions sound authoritative only because he uses loaded terms like law and regulation. Airport overviews from the air or ground, Tails and Winglets This video also went out to my Patrons on Patreon 48 hours before going out publicly. Our large helicopter section. As a survivor of a deadly, violent, burning breakup of an aircraft he's had a number of life challenges since but has emerged over time as a lucid, grateful and reflective artist who, probably like most people, wonders why such a senseless tragedy had to occur in the first place. My dad has mentioned to me several times this accident. About Press Copyright Contact us Creators Advertise Developers Terms Privacy Policy & Safety How YouTube works Test new features NFL Sunday Ticket Press Copyright . I emailed the gracious Mr. Valenciana and he tells me his description of the crash in his book mentions a violent initial impact. that would have shown the ILS inaccuracy. "There is also the possibility that the ILS signal could have been unstable due Otherwise his assertions aren't serious. On the other. https://www.upi.com/Archives/1989/09/16/DC-10-fleet-to-undergo-hydraulic-system-changes, https://www.designnews.com/aerospace/designed-disaster-dc-10-airliner-part-4, https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1979/08/04/engineer-balks-at-changes-in-critical-dc10-systems, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_DC-10, https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a205115.pdf Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.153.142.87 (talk) 00:18, 18 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]. found him noticeably upset about the trip to Mexico City. The right wing obviously was damaged. . Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries, Airport Overviews Cockpit crew coordina By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Its a plane which certainly has a divided history. The widely recognized, deeply systemic problems of control by market forces means any article is going to be edited to surrender to those market forces. Even sadder is the fact that all four of those major air Mexico and the US both consider tourism to be critically important. seems to say the following: " We're (He's?) This is blather with ludicrous speculation. I would think so. Here is an excerpt from the "Aeronautical Decision Making Cockpit Resource Management" report describing the flight data recorder findings: There's no indication they are having a disagreement of any kind during the landing phase or minutes before it. Western Airlines 2605 is a crash that sticks out in my mind as one of the most mysterious accidents of all time, as comparatively little about the accident itself has been released to the public. They will have been expecting something like 2-3 miles visibility (per the 05:00 weather report). All of them involved pilot fatigue, either from - paragraph added (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.214.74 at 20:21, 19 December 2019, The ICAO publication doesn't correlate sounds from the CVR to events as they are happening but the CVR recording of the final moments of this accident is probably the most impressionable record of the event the general public has access to and it may be unclear how the accident was unfolding with just the audio. - paragraph added at 23:02 + amended at 23:09, 30 November (unsigned contributions) by 173.153.180.238 and at 01:17, 1 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.15.41, Engine power indications were virtually unchanged until about 9 seconds More importantly pilot errors occured. Interestingly Gilbert had specified he didn't want to fly with Reichel and Walsh but was apparently told to fly with them anyway for one last time which of course turned out to be the last time he would ever fly. Consider the false instrument landing system (ILS) glideslope indication which was said to have caused Korean Air Flight 801 to smash into a hill outside of Guam in 1997. Lombard wanted to fly. With a fogbank unluckily placed they would not see 23R; and this is at night, so they likely wouldnt see the fogbank itself either. (But the pilots did anyway, probably as they did far more often that didn't end in some kind of horrific hull loss, and perhaps as Gilbert was doing in '79. ) - paragraph amended at 20:36, 1 January 2020 (unsigned contribution) by 73.61.9.109. If such an experienced pilot can become the victim of such circumstances, Accident, incident and crash related photos, Air to Air What happened was it was 3am, they were all half asleep on the job and descended into the ground, and one main gear happened to come into contact with a closed runway. " Cookie Notice I don't know what the comment above means when it says the CVR contained "the required information." Aircraft flying government officials, Helicopters If anyone is familiar with this accident, you'll understand why I'm so curious about it. None of these higher authorities performed as required by law and regulation to make sure the buck stopped sooner. Nine pages of information from the ICAO circular might be "too much" information but an effort to add notable information might be helpful. Both military and civil versions, Blimps / Airships comments sorted by Best Top New Controversial Q&A Add a Comment . According to the research done by Dr. Zeller and McNorton, at the Information wanted on Western Airlines flight 2605. The article doesn't mention how many of the fatalities were crew; I presume from the description that all three pilots perished. So the CVR may in fact be missing details. accident had to be one of human factors. We thank you for your support and hope you'll join the largest aviation community on the web. However, Flying Magazine is low credibility content in comparison to the official reports, or at least we would expect it to be. I have read something that suggests there was a disagreement in the cockpit about matters unrelated to the actual landing stage of the flight. after initial touch down, when all engines were increased to a little over 100 talked with him just six days before his fatal accident. Crew fatigue is believe to have been a contributing cause. In addition to airline bankruptcies, and industry consolidation, the Airline Deregulation Act meant open war on airline labor including pilots although it is rarely described this way. Privacy Policy. He discredits ALPAs conclusions. All Rights Reserved. - paragraph added at 00:00, 31 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.182.80, His credibility has been questioned but he is persuasive. On October 31, 1979, the aircraft used for the flight, a McDonnell Douglas DC-10,. Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin, Night Photos - paragraph amended at 21:05, 30 December by 173.120.131.243 and 00:00, 31 December 2019 by 173.120.182.80 (unsigned contributions), Bordering on the fantastic Eduardo claims the Mexican police kidnapped him and were trying to force him to sign confessions or affidavits stating the pilots were drunk on liquor he had served them during the flight. [9] . The "impossible" happened about 3 years after the plane's first commercial flight. The sad thing about this accident is that not one of Accident, incident and crash related photos, Air to Air Most of the public is or was under the impression that safety would never be negatively impacted by sweeping "free market" legislation. . - para break moved, + para amended, by 173.120.246.108 (unsigned contribution), at 20:30, 25 December 2019, - section created at 22:08, 25 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.246.108. AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own. By clicking "I AGREE" below, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our personal data processing and cookie practices as described therein. As a consequence, they will not be dealt with; they The plane is surrounded by heavy, dense fog and other than this view into the cockpit there is no visibility. The aircraft speed decreased from 136 knots to 128 knots. Report. He expressed serious concern about the approach to the air Here are some ideas: - paragraph added at 20:21 + amended at 20:22, 19 December 2019 (unsigned contributions) by 173.120.214.74, Lay readers still have no idea what a "more than 2g force landing" means. Actress Carole Lombard won a coin toss against her mother and Clark Gable's press agent Otto Winkler when deciding whether they would fly or go by train back to LA. (Right?) have to deal with: a fog bound low Visibility approach, an Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe, Classic Airliners 1 / 3. All three crew agreed they were on the wrong side 23L but of course it was at a point too late. and our He ed the knowledge to deal with the human aspect identified The front wheels never touched the runway until perhaps the aircraft was destroyed. But this may already have long been determined to be the left wheel touchdown - but I haven't read a report specifically stating this yet. The right landing gear was momentarily on its way to impacting the loaded dump truck. Views from inside the cockpit, Aircraft Cabins We know that runway 23L was closed to traffic that day, as the runway was being resurfaced. Sep 3 - Sep 4. Maybe if the pilot saw obstructions ahead. By logging into your account, you agree to our. surface altitude of over 7,000 feet. It ought to be (if at all possible). Most reports I've read seem to state that Pilot Gilbert saw the truck. This is incorrect information from the control tower at Mexico City (assuming the ICAO circular Section 1.8.2 is accurate). percent. The US and Mexico had just completed an involved, complex deal for Mexico to supply natural gas to the US. But then, with fog-banks etc giving them problems, visual contact was with 23L but not 23R; they reckoned they had slightly overdone the lateral separation and moved left to correct it, and so lined up with 23L . that he owned a T-6 and flew for fun, made such a mistake? The Douglas DC10, even before 1979 suffered multiple hull loses and even for a time, held the accolade of being the aircraft involved in the deadliest air disaster to have occurred at that time. On top of all this, the The 2nd officer, Reichel, most likely did not call out altitude on approach. Directives, training have addressed problems over the years so a conclusion that can be assumed is "safety has improved" in this regard. Theyd have no obvious warning tht 23R was in front of them but hidden. He considers this to be the collision with the truck and the right landing gear, not the touchdown. We know that runway 23L was closed to traffic that day, as the runway was being resurfaced. Western Airlines immediately lost a number of hubs following deregulation, only to retain Salt Lake City and Los Angeles. We'll never know because of the damage to the CVR: "The possibility exists that the callouts were made but erased in that portion of the CVR tape; however, it is highly unlikely that this was accomplished. The CVR has been widely available for years. CAPTAIN A.O.D. A periodical featuring an advertisement of the L1011 depicts a perspective just off the nose of the aircraft. It might be fake, but then with it being a non-US crash, it might have leaked out? Is it not discussed in the reliable sources? Your destination for buying luxury property in Saint-Ismier, Auvergne-Rhne-Alpes, France. So the Government was clearly crashing its own credibility by the 1980s. This would certainly result in limited to no control over the aircraft. after the truck collision. It was a DGAC (Mexican) investigation. Western Airlines Flight 2605 was an international scheduled passenger flight from Los Angeles to Mexico City. Because as with the case of this accident, there really wasnt any wrong with the plane. give him a different crew if he would fly this one last flight From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm. Well, yeah, but what if they thought the runway they had visual contact with was the correct runway, 23R? In the early hours of January 16, 1942, their plane would crash on Potosi Mountain, killing everyone on board. Note that the L1011 and B747 of the same era would lock the slats outward in the event of hydraulic fluid loss. France (Isre, Auvergne-Rhne-Alpes): Current local time in & Next time change in Saint-Ismier, Time Zone Europe/Paris (UTC+1). Those locks prevent an unbalanced aerodynamic condition in which one wing has more lift than the other. SquisherDa (talk) 10:16, 24 October 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply], And, thinking of sources - do we have the CVR? BY AR385 - Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:03 am - Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:03 am #10741679. I replied to one post below that had the time of day wrong concerning the accident. The ICAO report does not mention the ILS as any possible contributor. Plenty of people look back on the aircraft with fondness as an iconic piece of 20th century aviation. Ironically this hearsay reaches the same conclusion: the pilots were to blame. Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon, Accidents Can we correlate these similarities to previous and future accidents at that time of the DC-10? We haven't read this conclusion in any of the reports because no one has access to ILS signaling after the fact, at least in this contributors understanding of what data was recorded in air operations so unfortunately this is speculation based on what happened. SquisherDa (talk) 10:16, 24 October 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]. A key result of the engine detachment and hydraulic failure was the atypical slat retraction of the DC-10 in these circumstances. 32 Avenue Du Gresivaudan, Meylan, Isere, 38700. That alone would be fascinating if we could obtain it. Most of them are weak premise. the ground at any time. The US allowed Mexico to lead their official investigation into the accident. Western Airlines Flight 2605, nicknamed the "Night Owl", was an international scheduled passenger flight from Los Angeles, California, to Mexico City, Mexico. Cookie Notice the distant horizon-c-at least for air carrier investigations We may share certain information about our users with our advertising and analytics partners. A final point he makes concerning the catastrophe is difficult to disagree with: it was much easier to just blame the pilots for the accident because dead men tell no tales. At that point, the right main gear lifted off the Might be good to add that detail. Flying Magazine discredits the ALPA report. WA 2605, A 35 AOS DEL PEOR ACCIDENTE AREO EN LA CIUDAD DE MXICO Hopefully this accident is featured on one of the future Air Crash Investigation episodes on Discovery channel. The Spanish language page is similar to the English version. (Did they know where they were more specifically?) Privacy Policy. (That is, do the sidestep "in advance", out by "Metro Eco".)