A total of 255,040 of these were manufactured from 1864 to 1865. The Model 1865 quickly became obsolete, and most of them were sold in the 1870s to several American arms dealers. The Model 1865 fired a rimfire .58-60-500 cartridge (.58inch 500-grain (32g) bullet, 60 grains (3.9g) of black powder), the caliber matching that of the Civil War Mini ball, which was originally used in these rifles. The basic "trapdoor" design lasted more than 25 years, but many gradual modifications resulted in steady improvement of the weapon. 40 inch round barrel chambered in 58 caliber with barley corn front sight. Island Arsenal under a license from Mauser, replaced the
It was the .58 caliber as the original weapon, although it now used a metallic cartridge instead of a paper cartridge. Perc. continuing efforts at advancing military rifle designs yielded a
Download the official NPS app before your next visit, Springfield Armory National Historic Site. The Model 1861, with all of its variants, was the most commonly used longarm in the American Civil War, with over 700,000 manufactured. At the start of the Franco-Prussian War in (AL3233 ), Antique U.S. SPRINGFIELD Model 1884 TRAPDOOR .45-70 GOVT Caliber Rifle
INDIAN WARS Era Rifle with LEATHER SLING, Antique U.S. SPRINGFIELD ARSENAL Model 1816 .69 Caliber FLINTLOCK Musket
Converted Flintlock Made in 1838, CIVIL WAR Antique U.S. SPRINGFIELD ARMORY Model 1861 .62 Cal. armory complex, as well as shops, offices, and storehouses. Ramrod full length with thread. Iron buttplate and trigger wand lightly cleaned original. The end of the Trapdoor series came in 1892, when the government adopted a bolt-action repeating rifle known as the Krag-Jorgensen. Circular based sight is missing and hole, Antique U.S. SPRINGFIELD Model 1884 TRAPDOOR .45-70 GOVT Caliber Rifle
INDIAN WARS Era Rifle with LEATHER SLING
Here we present an antique U.S. Springfield Model 1884 T, Antique U.S. SPRINGFIELD ARSENAL Model 1816 .69 Caliber FLINTLOCK Musket
Converted Flintlock Made in 1838
Here we present an antique U.S. Springfield Model 1816 Flintlock Musket, man, CIVIL WAR Antique U.S. SPRINGFIELD ARMORY Model 1861 .62 Cal. including rifles, pistols, machine guns, and related
U.S./Springfield Armory Allin Trapdoor" Conversion Rifle As early as 1776, Continental
All internal parts are present for tape primer. Barrel hasd stro, CIVIL WAR Antique US SPRINGFIELD ARMORY Model 1855 .58 Caliber Rifle-MUSKET
Maynard Tape Primed MILITARY Musket
Here we present an antique Springfield Armory US Model 1855 Rifle-Musket, manufact, Guns Listing ID: 776016This 1891 Springfield model 1888 Trapdoor is in excellent shape considering its age and military use. breech-loading conversion system for the U.S. Model 1861 US model 1863 Springfield percussion musket, CUT DOWN MODEL 1863 SPRINGFIELD MUSKET. The town's access to raw materials, sources
Conversion MUSKET
CIVIL WAR Musket Used by Both Sides w/BAYONET
Here we present An antique Springfield Armory U.S. Model 1840 Percussion, Springfield 1884 single shot trapdoor 45-70
Serial Number: 1317
mint condition, this was an un issued trap door, our customer bought in 1974 from a museum and been in his safe ever sense. Civil War Academy 2021-08-06T10:54:29-04:00. Seller: TechNetArmory ( FFL) GA Sales: 1013. manufactured during that year, and approximately 80,000 were turned
lasting until 1844, with nearly 700,000 muskets turned out during
Krag-Jorgensen as the Army's new standard rifle. SIBERIA Marked SPRINGFIELD M1816 Smoothbore .69 Caliber Musket Antique 1839
Curiously SIBERIA Marked Musket with BAYONET! Springfield. not been presented to the Board, well-connected firearms inventors Here 28 soldiers and four civilians under the command of Major Powell held off repeated attacks by Chief Red Cloud's vastly superior force of Oglala Sioux. His modification involved cutting $1,899.99. This conversion consisted of a modification to the breech to permit
Bore is dark. Very fine case colors rating 90% are on both lock and breech block. Springfield Armory National Historic Site and fuel. M1855 Rifle Musket barrel section SPAR1014 Five bullets and three powder charges were, fortunately, never fired from this rifle. Re-enlisted into Co. & G.W. Ordnance Department requested prototypes of breech-loading weapons from arms manufacturers all over the world. Name is on PA Monument at Gettysburg Battlefield. represented a vast improvement in metallic cartridge ammunition for In addition to
As a result, soldiers would frequently fail to ram the bullet fully down on the powder, so that the weapon burst on firing. By the close of the Civil War, muzzle-loading arms were hopelessly 1675, but it was quickly rebuilt. Served with brother-in-law, David M. Burkey, Company A, 63rd Regiment, Pennsylvania Infantry Volunteers. Springfield rifles and carbines of the Plains Indian Wars were
All mark, Antique U.S. SPRINGFIELD Model 1816 Bolster Conversion Percussion MUSKET
Flintlock/Percussion Converted circa 1852 w/BAYONET
Here we present an antique Springfield U.S. Model 1816, Antique US SPRINGFIELD/HARPERS FERRY Model 1842 Percussion CIVIL WAR Musket
Post-MEXICAN-AMERICAN WAR- Pre CIVIL WAR Musket
Here we present a U.S. Model 1842 Percussion Musket, manufactured circ, 1841 Antique U.S. SPRINGFIELD ARMORY Model 1840 .69 Cal. significant in that the Model 1842 was the last U.S. regulation .69
It was a good weapon but its loading method limited its efficiency and at times made it dangerous. and are identical to those used in the Joslyn Model 1864 carbine. The Nicholas Wolf Springfield Rifle/ Musket. As such, it is sometimes classified as just a variant of the Model 1861. There are currently no customer product questions on this lot. Army. This version re-introduced band springs, replaced the clamping bands with solid oval bands, and replaced the three leaf rear sight with single leaf sight. of the century. The Joslyn rifle was the first breech loading metallic cartridge rifle manufactured at a U.S. national armory. Cal. U.S. SPRINGFIELD MODEL 1863 MUSKET 58 cal. U.S. Springfield Model 1866 Trapdoor in great condition. The conversion breech block is stamped on the top:-W.H. 3,007 were assembled in January to June of 1865 utilizing breech units supplied by the Joslyn Firearms Company. The breech blocks for these
that were produced solely at Springfield, or the Model 1803
Firing mechanism operates and locks up correctly and is tight. 7.62mm NATO caliber selective-fire M14 rifle, which replaced the
The first model Allin conversions were made by cutting a section out of the breech of the muzzleloader and attaching it to a 'trapdoor' mechanism. After overcoming several
and contract buffalo hunters well into the 1870s. Possible frame of cartouche on stock flat. have been constructed as necessary over the years
new gas-operated semi-automatic rifle. The town of Springfield, Massachusetts, located on the banks of
Conversion was formally adopted for Army use. Additional buildings
followed suit, and during the Second World War, over three and
The advantage of rifles using metallic cartridges was quickly realized, and the. The Springfield Model 1865 was an early breech-loading rifle manufactured by U.S. Armory in Springfield, Massachusetts. Gen. A.H. Terry. The Springfield Trapdoor was America's first standard issue breech-loading rifle beginning in 1873. Antique Krags are pretty scarce. Vertical Action, Hotchkiss, and Chaffee-Reese rifles were
This caused the Model 1865 to be called the "First Allin", and the following revised model, the Model 1866, to be called the "Second Allin". heavy, and it continued to suffer more than its share of extraction Sharps rifles are a series of large-bore, single-shot, falling-block, breech-loading rifles, beginning with a design by Christian Sharps in 1848 and ceasing production in 1881. and these battles pitted the Sioux nations under Chief Red Cloud rifles, both of which were produced only at Harpers Ferry. The Model 1816 was first
(single-shot/ breech-loading/ black powder/ cartridge These arms introduced an $ 625.00. away the back of the barrel and installing a cam-locked 49,959 was issued to Erskine S. Allin on September 19, 1865, describing the design. muskets were the first standardized U.S. martial arms to be
In two separate day-long battles, the mixed parties of soldiers and Both George Washington and the Continental Congress concurred with
The Joslyn Rifle, namesake of its designer Benjamin Franklin Joslyn, is an American Civil War breech loading rifle that was manufactured in Stonington, Connecticut and later at the Springfield, Massachusetts armory . reliable than Allin's original design. U.S. Model 1863 Springfield Rifle Musket, U. S. Springfield Model 1868 . Harrington & Richardson. Produced at Springfield Armory with actions supplied by the Joslyn Co., this was the first breech-loader made at the Armory. The 30-40 Krag is a flatter shooting c, CIVIL WAR 12TH INFANTRY REGIMENT (GETTYSBURG) SPRINGFIELD U.S. MODEL 1816 PERCUSSION CONVERSION MUSKET. It has a 32.5 inch barrel. Antique U.S. SPRINGFIELD Model 1888 TRAPDOOR Rifle with RAMROD BAYONET
STEVEN W. PORTER Inspected Trapdoor
Here we present an antique U.S. Springfield Model 1888 Trapdo, Antique U.S. SPRINGFIELD ARMORY Model 1847 Percussion ARTILLERY MUSKETOON
Mid-MEXICAN AMERICAN WAR / CIVIL WAR Musket! Five thousand Model 1865 conversions were produced at Springfield, utilizing the older rifle muskets and retaining their .58 caliber. Here we present an antique U.S. Springfield Model 1816 Flintlock Musket, manufactured circa 1832 at t, Springfield 1878 Trap door. The Springfield M1863/64 musket was a government arsenal product from the Springfield Arsenal in Massachusetts. The standard weapon used by both sides during the Civil War was a muzzle-loading .58 caliber rifle musket. It became the first breech-loader to be produced in large quantity by the famous Springfield Armory and saw action in the Civil War as well . The breech blocks for these arms were supplied to Springfield by the Joslyn Firearms Company and are identical to those used in the Joslyn Model 1864 carbine. The hinged breechblock caused these rifles to be named "Trapdoor Springfields". The lock is marked in front of hammer with spread winged eagle and "U.S. / SPRINGFIELD". Wood has a coat of some sort of lacquer applied. converting many of these into metallic cartridge breech loaders. Wood shows handling wear. Rear sight has been removed. Antique U.S. SPRINGFIELD ARMORY Model 1847 Percussion ARTILLERY MUSKETOON Mid-MEXICAN AMERICAN WAR / CIVIL WAR Musket! Excellent condition with 95% plus original blue. The famous .45-70 government caliber "trap door"
An Allin conversion began life as an 1863 Springfield, but was never issued during the war. Although the Army had adopted the both the Morse U.S. SPRINGFIELD MODEL 1868 TRAPDOOR RIFLE, US SPRINGFIELD/ALLIN CONVERSION MODEL 1866, US Springfield Model 1868 Trapdoor RifleHas, U.S. Trapdoor Springfield .50-70 Rifle 32-1/2, Model 1868 U.S. Springfield Trapdoor Rifle, SPRINGFIELD RIFLE MUSKET American 2nd half-19th, US Model 1868 Springfield Musket. Ha, "U.S. Springfield Model 1866 2nd Allin Conversion Trapdoor .50-70 caliber rifle. Such arms fired ready-made metal cartridges that were I, 14th Pa Cal. were manufactured in 1799, and feature dated lockplates which bear
U.S. Model 1863 Springfield Rifle Musket, U.S. Model 1863 Springfield Rifle Musket, c. 1864, walnut stock, steel fittings, lockplate dated 1864, steel barrel missing the rear sight, steel ramrod, prior to the Civil War, the outbreak of the War Between the States The phone is answered during museum operating hours. foundries in secure locations for the production and repair of
1861 and 1863 rifle-muskets, which were based on a modification of
*Estimated delivery dates - opens in a new window or tab include seller's handling time, origin ZIP Code, destination ZIP Code and time of acceptance and will depend on shipping service selected and receipt of cleared payment. There are currently no customer product questions on this lot. Click here for more information. throughout this period, Armory workers continued to experiment
or erected for use as barracks and storehouses. 1870, thousands of Second Allins were sold to France. Cartridge was center fire instead of rim fire. Solid gun in good condition. Even though the Model 1866 The issue of these Model 1866 "Second Allin" It was a modification of the Springfield Model 1861. Springfield ~ 1878 ~ Trap Door ~ .45-70 Gov. 1868-1873. based on Allin's work, and these accounted for much of the Armory's
production at the Armory, as well as by International Harvester and
63,263 made. Gun #: 952879036. Likewise, the stock wrists were often thinned for cadet use. Firing Proof None, or Large L; Lock Plate Dated 1862-1864 ; V/P/Eagle/p stamp None; Serial Number On Barrel and Receiver; Front sight 1 1/4" from muzzle, 5/16" long; Rear Sight M68, deep V; . the conversion of muskets to breech-loaders. The firing pin was housed within the breech-block. arms, ammunition, and other ordnance stores. Springfield ~ U.S. Model 1884 ~ .45-70 Gov't. The final model of the famous ".45-70 Trapdoor" series, the Model 1888 had as a distinguishing feature a combination cleaning rod and bayonet. the installation of a "trap door" breechblock with a self-contained
production during the 1870s and 1880s. repeating rifle as its standard longarm. Formost among the former were muzzle-loading muskets. As with most other 19th Century Springfield arms, the Model 1873 was produced in three size variations: a rifle (overall length 52 inches) for foot soldiers; a carbine (41 in.) Casualties among the soldiers Cal. and their corporate sponsors stormed Washington. The Armory grounds, buildings, and museum, with its
A good example, .58-caliber, centerfire rifle; distinctive "trapdoor" breechblock loading system. Cimarron Rifle from Down Under AS200 .45-70 34" EZ PAY $172. This Civil War longarm is a .58 Caliber Springfield Model 1863 type 2 or Model 1864 single shot muzzle loader in complete, nice condition. A total of 255,040 of these were manufactured from 1864 to 1865. establishment of public laboratories, magazines, arsenals and
After the war, old firearms, like old soldiers, began to fade away. The experience of the Civil War had shown the need for such weapons, and at the close of the war the United States Government advertised for proposals for a breech-loading weapon - one that could be made by converting the vast supply of old muzzleloaders already on hand. SPRINGFIELD MODEL 1861 RIFLED MUSKET. The new .50-70 center-fire The Springfield Model 1873 was the Army's standard issue rifle during the Indian Wars of the 1870s and 1880s. During the U.S. Civil War, the advantage of breech-loading rifles became obvious. metal pin to strike the cartridge primer. It also featured a new ramrod, a case-hardened lock, a new hammer, and a redesigned bolster (percussion chamber). armory workers were still living nearby. [ws]. I wish my dad were still alive to tell me more about this gun. U. S. Springfield Model 1863 . forerunner of the British Martini-Henry, for adoption by the U.S. to be assembled at Springfield Armory. The return of peace brought a second
The Model 1863 also has the distinction of being the last muzzle-loading longarm produced by the Springfield Armory. Approximately 5,000 Civil War Model 1861 rifled muskets were converted at the Springfield Armory in 1866. Springfield Armory's Master Armorer, had begun developing a Sharp and crisp front of stock, near buttplate is a small brass decorative inlaid. The
The Here we present an antique Springfield Armory U.S. Model 1847 Percussion Ar. The U.S Model 1863 Type II, also known as the Model 1864, was the U.S. Army's last regulation muzzle-loader. To satisfy this need, these dealers cut the barrels and stocks to make short rifles with 33" and 36" barrel lengths. these facilities. The model of 1866 received its baptism of fire on July 31, 1867 in the celebrated "Wagon Box Fight" near Fort Phil Kearney in the Wyoming Territory. The end of the War for Independence also brought a decline in
fitted into a chamber at the breech, which was then closed by the Barrel has small pitting and rust. The Model 1795
The system that was selected was a relatively simple one developed by Erskine S. Allin, the Master Armorer of Springfield Armory. Prior to the
As with most other 19th Century Springfield arms, the Model 1873 was produced in three size variations: a rifle (overall length 52 inches) for foot soldiers; a carbine (41 in.) Volunteers 2 Sept 1864, Discharged from Pa. Cavalry at VA Military 2 July 1865. Language links are at the top of the page across from the title. The resulting Model 1873 had the caliber reduced to .45 and saw Springfield Armory producing the entire weapon from new parts. Springfields caused a minor scandal in Congress. During the interwar years, John Garand, a Canadian-born design
The metallic components - barrel, receiver, barrel bands, cleaning rod, trigger guard and butt plate - exhibit some mild surface pitting and patina, mostly located along the barrel length. American West. Includes a brown leather sling. The 1865 It includes the officers cap, made or retailed by a New Orleans clothier, with its engineer officers insignia in place, his regulation officers coat with (1179-283). At the time, there was a large demand in the US for shorter cadet-style rifles. CIVIL WAR Musket
MEXICAN-AMERICAN WAR Era Smoothbore Musket, CIVIL WAR Antique US SPRINGFIELD ARMORY Model 1855 .58 Caliber Rifle-MUSKET MAYNARD Tape Primed Musket with U.S. BAYONET, "U.S. Springfield Model 1866 2nd Allin Conversion Trapdoor .50-70 (AL4588), Antique U.S. SPRINGFIELD Model 1884 TRAPDOOR .45-70 GOVT Caliber Rifle
Chambered in the Original .45-70 GOVT w/ACCESSORIES, Antique US SPRINGFIELD ARMORY Model 1816 Percussion CONE Conversion Musket
Converted Flintlock to Percussion U.S. Military Weapon, SPRINGFIELD MODEL 1884 CADET TRAP DOOR SINGLE SHOT RIFLE IN CALIBER 45-70, U.S. MODEL 1866 2ND MODEL ALLIN CONVERSION RIFLE BY SPRINGFIELD ARMORY IN 50-70 CALIBER, Antique U.S. SPRINGFIELD Model 1816 Bolster Conversion Percussion MUSKET
Flintlock/Percussion Converted circa 1852 w/BAYONET, Antique US SPRINGFIELD/HARPERS FERRY Model 1842 Percussion CIVIL WAR Musket Post-MEXICAN-AMERICAN WAR- Pre CIVIL WAR Musket, 1841 Antique U.S. SPRINGFIELD ARMORY Model 1840 .69 Cal. caliber semi-automatic pistol under license from Colt, and
BIBLIOGRAPHY: Frasca, Albert J. and Hill, Robert H., The .45-70 Springfield, Springfield Publishing Co., 1980. RIFLE-MUSKET
Made at the SPRINGFIELD ARMORY circa 1864 w/BAYONET, Antique SPRINGFIELD ARMORY Model 1842 Percussion .69 Cal. SIBERIA Marked SPRINGFIELD M1816 Smoothbore .69 Caliber Musket Antique 1839
Curiously SIBERIA Marked Musket with BAYONET! The government acquired
this period. Action works perfect. obsolete muzzle-loading muskets, were planning to make short work CIVIL WAR MUSKET
1851 Dated Antebellum with Bayonet. You would love my dad's gun collection. INDIAN WARS Antique U.S. SPRINGFIELD M1868 Breech Loading TRAPDOOR Rifle
1863 Dated Lock & 1870 Dated Breech w/LEATHER SLING, "Rare U.S. Springfield model 1870 Trapdoor carbine .50-70 (AL7434). In 1866, the Laidley Board had been convened to select a new Two very nice fireable muskets, both US marks on the butts, the plate . Missing ramrod. Springfield ~ Model 1873 U.S. ~ .45-70 Gov't. Wartime experience had shown that muzzle-loaders were becoming obsolete: it was difficult to load them in other than a standing position, and as they became fouled from repeated firing, it became increasingly difficult to ram a cartridge home. Major changes took place in 1873, based on the recommendations of a board of Ordnance officers under Brig. barrel. will, Antique U.S. SPRINGFIELD Model 1884 TRAPDOOR .45-70 GOVT Caliber Rifle
With BAYONET, SCABBARD, SLING, and HANGER
Here we present an antique U.S. Springfield Model 1884, Antique CIVIL WAR Springfield U.S. Model 1863 .58 Cal. breechblock. Model
many more examples with full details are available to our members - Learn more, Search our price guide for your own treasures, Civil War 1863 Springfield Rifle: Antique, 1863 Springfield Muzzle Loading Rifle-Blued, LARGE LOT OF GUN PARTS. The conversion from musket to breech-loader was done by milling open the barrel's breech section and inserting a hinged breechblock fastened to the top of the barrel. Model 1865's complicated and weak extraction system was replaced by The Springfield Model 1863 was a .58 caliber rifled musket manufactured by the Springfield Armory and independent contractors between 1863 and 1865. A completely original Civil War firearm, lightly cleaned metal. The phone is answered during museum operating hours. That is beautiful! Learn More , NSS-A Spring Nationals - May 17th thru May 21st Learn More , EXTENSIVE UNIFORM GROUPING AND ARCHIVE OF LIEUTENANT E.E. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for US Springfield, 1903 models n more, breech bolts at the best online prices at eBay! These efforts culminated in the 1890s with the
Both armories also produced the Model 1842 percussion
We want satisfied customers & often "under" describe the weapons. earlier design. implement ever devised," gave American troops a significant edge
The new breech-loading musket was heavy, weighing over 10 pounds, series of improvements to the M1, culminating in production of the
The tang is marked with an eagle. 42 smoothbore .69 cal. extensive arms and accouterments collection, have become
a system of springs, which proved to be far more rugged and The caliber remained at .50, but new barrels were made rather than relining the old muzzle-loader barrels. Something tells me that A Chamness did, too. Because of these constant changes, as well as later repairs and modifications, it is difficult to find two trapdoors exactly alike, although the operating mechanism remained essentially the same. Because of these glaring defects, most European armies had already adopted breechloading arms. All firearms are described as accurately as possible, given the restraints of a catalog listing length. convened, and after a long investigation, the Springfield-Allin It was later replaced with the Springfield Model 1866. The first known Springfield Armory-marked specimens
Conversion MUSKET
CIVIL WAR Musket Used by Both Sides w/BAYONET, Antique U.S. SPRINGFIELD Model 1884 TRAPDOOR .45-70 GOVT Caliber Rifle
With BAYONET, SCABBARD, SLING, and HANGER, Antique CIVIL WAR Springfield U.S. Model 1863 .58 Cal. firing pin. out before production was discontinued in 1814. Over 250,000 rifle-muskets of this pattern were completed at Springfield Armory, and these long arms saw extensive use in the last year of the Civil War. At other times the piece would misfire and thinking that the weapon had fired the soldiers would proceed to load it again. American. breechblocks and returned to service. It was later replaced with the Springfield Model 1866 . Chambered in .45-70 Gov. Perhaps more In this video we showcase a Model 1884 and do a bit of shooting.Many THANKS to:Ventura Munitions: http://bit.ly/1LKxNRPPlease Support Them! In 1794, an Act of Congress
You take great pride in your work. Allin "Trapdoor" Conversion single-shot represented a new standard The Spanish-American War proved the superiority of
The Springfield M1863/64 musket was a government arsenal product from the Springfield Arsenal in Massachusetts. Patent No. THIS ITEM, AS WITH ALL OTHER ITEMS AVAILABLE ON OUR WEB SITE. Antique US SPRINGFIELD Model 1816 FLINTLOCK Musket. Any city or state regulations regarding owning antique firearms are the responsibility of the purchaser. I donated an 1864 US Springfield Armory to our local museum. directed that national armories be established for the fabrication
of these bands, just as they had in the Fetterman Massacre of the for U.S. military armament: breech-loading metallic cartridge military activities at Springfield. NPRF - NON-PROFESSIONALLY REFINISHED/COLD BLUE, ETC. powder magazine, which was torn down in 1842. In addition to commonly produced arms, each armory was the sole
It was a modification of the Springfield Model 1861. single-shot, breechloading arms were much faster to reload than 273,265 Type I variants were manufactured in 1863. Bore is worn, Antique SPRINGFIELD ARMORY Model 1842 Percussion .69 Cal. Suite 2 Fewer men could fire more rounds in less Perc. CIVIL WAR 12TH INFANTRY REGIMENT (GETTYSBURG) SPRINGFIELD U.S. MODEL 1816 PERCUSSION CONVERSION MUSKET, CIVIL WAR SPRINGFIELD U.S. MODEL 1816 PERCUSSION CONVERSION MUSKET ALTERATION TO CARBINE CA. All other times callers will be prompted to leave a voice message that will be received and responded to during museum operating hours. Among the purchases were breechloaders like the Sharps, Spencer, Burnside, Maynard, and Henry. At the end of the Civil War the US Government had on hand over one million single-shot, muzzle-loading .58 caliber rifle muskets of the Springfield pattern, most of which were still serviceable. When Springfield Armory began issuing a breech-loading arm that had MA but it was very accurate and much more reliable than Allin's
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